Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

I have been reading Goodwin and Guze's Psychiatric Diagnosis; 6ed... and thought I could relate a cross-reference this with my previous post on this link HERE.

One should never self-diagnosis, I am not trained in this sort of thing.  My psychologist thinks perhaps I was normally afraid of the dark like most children were.  I just don't know if I was able to express myself about everything at the time I told him the information about being molested.  Besides, in my opinion, the worst 'trauma' I experienced after the fact was that my mother said it might have been my fault and that I might have somehow sought him out.   I erroneously was thinking that perhaps I did seek him out, and asked her if that was the case, was it my fault?  She said she didn't know, maybe, probably.  My psychologist said emphatically, NO.  It is never the child's fault.  Additionally, it's possible my cousin may have been acting out because of abuses done to him or that he had witnessed; at least that is what some of my relatives have said.  They want me to talk to him, because in the past I tried to talk to him, but my mother interfered.  However I do NOT want to talk to him in person or by Facebook or anything.  I have an intense revulsion for him.  I don't think I actually hate him, and I don't think I am exactly afraid of him, but perhaps I am more afraid about what I will find out about him.  We're guessing if I was ranging in age from 6-9 years old, then he may have started the abuse when he was 12 -15 years (possibly longer than that).  He was pretty much a child himself, and may have been having issues with his own PSTD.  I have difficulty feeling any sympathy for him, as my mother defends him enough for the both of us anyway.   It almost feels to me like my mother feels worse for her nephew than she does for me, her own daughter.    . 

Also I have figured something out:  I was possibly older than I previously thought when some of this abuse was still occurring.  I think the tornado when he was visiting us in our city was in 1979, which would mean I was around 8 turning 9, and he would be around 15.  That visit was the time he clamped his hand over my mouth so I could barely breathe when my mom came down to the door of the basement and called for me.  I tried to answer and he that is when he did that. And there was abuse before and after that point in time.  I just have trouble figuring things out chronologically. 

I was reading up a bit on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in children who are abused, and I found it interesting that although I might have experienced some trauma in regards to the molestation, I think I probably had more trauma from my mother's emotional and psychological abuse/neglect.  PTSD seems to be more to do with witnessing or being a victim of horrible physical abuse, not mental or emotional or psychological trauma. I wasn't exactly repeatedly beaten physically, I didn't see blood and gore, and I didn't lose any limbs, but there definitely was a lot of stress and anxiety as a result of living in my environment.  Perhaps there is a different name for learning to deal with long-term stress causing anxiety.  Perhaps that is where Borderline Personality Disorder comes in to play.

It's just that for years, while the sexual molestation (never penetration) was occurring,I would be at school, or doing something mundane and all of a sudden these intrusive memories of what happened would pop into my head.  It was very disturbing.  I wouldn't exactly feel or smell anything, but sudden flashbacks of darkness or his presence or something about his face his hands or something about him and what he was doing to me would jump into my head.  It was very hard to block these things out.  I think I was constantly trying to occupy my thoughts to avoid thinking about it.  Even into my teens this would happen, especially at night when I was trying to go to sleep.  Perhaps this is why I can't remember much of my childhood. I was constantly trying to think of something else and do something rather than being aware of my surroundings, because a lot of times inside my head there were all these unwanted thoughts that I didn't want to deal with.  For the longest time I would be attracted to males and then those events with my cousin would jump into my head.  It was really hard not to think of these things.  Nowadays, in my forties, it seems to finally be fading away....

Goodwin and Guze's Psychiatric Diagnosis; 6 ed -- PAGE 136:

"In 1950, publication of an article on extreme stress in studies of animals
(186) heralded new approaches to research into neuroendocrine mechanisms
of stress. This study also first introduced the word stress into everyday speech in
reference to psychological experiences (117). More recently, the word trauma
has been used loosely in common parlance to represent anything emotionally
upsetting. Having to give a speech in class, being embarrassed by a colleague’s
comment, and sitting for a difficult examination are examples of emotionally
stressful events popularly labeled ‘‘traumatic.’’ Unfortunately, the use of the
word trauma to describe purely emotionally stressful events has blurred the
distinction between emotional stress and trauma in general usage.

Recent studies have linked PTSD with childhood molestation, depression,
anxiety disorders, borderline personality disorder, somatization disorder, multiple personality disorder, smoking, alcohol and drug abuse, irritable bowel
syndrome, and just about any label/problem/disorder imaginable. The literature
describing the interrelationships of these problems has assumed a causal
role of childhood trauma in the pathogenesis of borderline personality and
PTSD (96), although causal relationships have not been sufficiently documented in these groups.

Page 139:

"Two characteristics of individuals have repeatedly emerged as robust predictors of PTSD: female gender and pre-existing psychopathology. Specifically, pre-existing personality characteristics predict PTSD. Early life history of adversity and chaotic family background, which may occur in association with pre-existing psychopathology, also predict PTSD. These powerful individual predictors of psychopathology may account at least in part for effects previously attributed to exposure to the traumatic event, because of the confounding of pre-existing characteristics that convey risk for trauma as well as for psychopathology following that trauma. Other negative life events occurring after disasters also predict PTSD."

UPDATE:  I have a note from a forum where the psychologist has doubts that the thyroid issues are caused by PSTD; and are more likely inherited.
DB (psychologist on a forum) has just replied to a thread - The Neuroscience of Narcissistic Personality Disorder - in the Narcissistic Personality Disorder forum of Psychlinks Psychology Self-Help  & Mental Health Support Forum.

re is the message that has just been posted:

I don't know. We know that stress weakens the immune system but then again lots of people without traumatic histories have thyroid issues. Probably related more to family genetics than to trauma.
***************

I also asked T about his opinion and here is what he says: 

It’s hard to prove these kinds of links, so you’ll find most experts will punt on the question if put to them.  Given your historical situation, one question that occurs to me is to ask what your mother was taking for drugs when she was pregnant with you and your siblings, given her proclivities.  There are also environmental factors other than stress to be accounted for, but family genetics shouldn’t be ignored.  See the punt?

I have edited this thread because it was really really long and boring, and at the end of the whole thing, my theory went  up in smoke!  lol

Chronic Autoimmune Disorders

Visited one of my favourite sites HERE to read up a bit on stress and immunity issues.

My response to the thread: 

Re: Jolting system to counter chronic autoimmune disorders

Very interesting article, thank you David.


All three of us siblings have something attacking our immune system. I have Graves' Disease (well, used to, had to take the radioactive iodine because I couldn't stand it anymore) and my youngest brother has Hashimoto's... Interesting that we both have thyroid problems... My middle brother has vitiglio, which (my understanding) may be caused by stress when the immune system attacks the pigmentation in the skin... Even my dad's thryoid was hypo until he took medication for it (although no one has told us kids if it is actually Hashimoto's or something else). It could also be inherited, because my dad's father had thyroid issues (he died from Alzheimer's later).


You may remember me from other threads... I was wondering if perhaps because we were all chronically stressed, living with or dealing with someone in our family who has a personality disorder all our lives, plus of course the regular stressors of normal everyday life (or not so regular)... I wouldn't be surprised if we all have a bit of PTSD lol ... I could be a bit over-dramatizing and over-associating but I find it interesting that a mother is supposed to look after you and not attack you, but in our case she does attack us on a mental/emotional level, and would on a daily basis if we still associated ourselves with her. And as it's mentioned further up from this thread, our immune system is attacking when it should be protecting... Just find the parallel very interesting. 8P

Input From Other Relatives

Some very generalized quotes from a Facebook discussion (private messages) between a relative of mine and myself.  I had to edit rather intensely to protect the identity of my relative.  I can't use specific events as examples, and I can't say the exact details, and I can't even say the sex of the relative or whether this relative is a cousin, aunt, uncle, etc.  The reason I wanted to show this information, is for the benefit of others.  

If you have been raised by or live with someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and your relative or significant other or sibling/relative you will find that some relatives will support you and agree with your observations on his/her behaviour.  There will always be someone in the family that will try to defend this very same person.  The person with Narcissistic Personality, as you know, does manage to have some people on his/her side due to manipulation, lies, threats, stating opinion as fact, etc.

My mother, for instance, used to say negative things to my youngest brother R about my husband.  Because my husband and I didn't live in the same city for the longest time, my brother would have a hard time actually seeing what my husband truly is like as a person.  How could my brother think my mother was lying?  Why would mom say anything mean or be critical of the man married to her daughter unless that man was, in fact, a terrible person?  Of course my brother would tend to believe what my mother told him as fact.  Why would a mother try to turn someone against a child's spouse?  Because I was 'stolen' from her, that's why.  I was no longer hers to control, so why not try to do some sabotage to that relationship.  She also tried, even more intensely, to interfere with that brother of mine and his wife.  My mother has an intense hatred for my sister-in-law.

She probably still has hatred toward my husband: I am sure that her feelings about him didn't just disappear into thin air.  My theory is that if she talks about other people in our family when I am there, then I can only imagine what she says about me when I am not there.   I have made it clear to her that I love him and will defend him, so she certainly doesn't say anything rude or obnoxious in front of me about him anymore.  My mother has even tried to leave messages on our answering machine starting out the message with, "Don't tell your husband but..."  or some such nonsense.  Laughable, isn't it?  She wanted to tell me something on an audible answering machine and wanted me to hide that information from my own husband!  She even had the gall to tell me once that he resembled the cousin who molested me, and I told her in no uncertain terms, NEVER, EVER say that again. I absolutely do not see ANY resemblance whatsoever. Can you imagine??

When my husband and I moved back to the same city, my youngest brother's perceptions of my husband changed.   Those two fellows got to hang out together and with me and slowly my brother came around.   At first my brother was a little bit critical (although most of the time I took it as joking, giving my husband a hard time, etc because families are protective of their own)...  But after a while my brother began to see that my husband is a very gentle and loving man, fiercely loyal and protective of his wife.   My brother later apologized to my husband for the misunderstanding, but it was mostly misconceptions fed to him from my mother.  And she is guilty of that offense with everyone in our family.

 

My mother has been known to interfere (I have other relatives who have observed) medically and with medication of others. I assume it is because she is a registered nurse and has taken some additional classes regarding psychiatric drugs she seems to have some way of convincing doctors and nurses that she knows best for what medication someone in her family should have. This influence from her (according to relatives) has affected the quality of life for my middle brother, and possibly my mom's own parents.

My mother is very skilled at making others look or feel ridiculous if they don't take her side or follow her instructions. I would not be surprised if she tries everything from threatening to sue or take some kind of legal action (which she might try, but would likely fail), or she will try to undermine or humiliate someone who refuses her.   Imagine her making a scene in front of other doctors and administrators at a hospital in front of other staff, residents and visitors. She is very dangerous this way because she will cite her opinions and her own skewed observations as fact. She will SOUND like she knows exactly what she is talking about. I speculate that she would not be afraid to even resort to becoming hysterical if someone doesn't follow her instructions and accuse them of trying to murder or hurt someone because of their inaction/refusal to do what she wants them to do. Even if a person can see right before their eyes that it's black, she will do her best to make you say it is white, even though you see it as black.

If she can, she will get someone drugged or incapacitated to the point where they cannot voice their own opinion. Just the way she wants everyone around her to be! Apathetic, letting things happen, complacent, docile. No one arguing with her.

For my mother, it doesn't matter what the facts actually are; it's almost as though you need her permission to think the way you want.  If anything, my mother is persistent.  She is like water, and if she's at you enough, you will crumble.  Either that or she will just make your life hell because you refuse to succumb to her very strong will. If you don't think how she thinks, then you have something wrong with you, or at least that is what she will go around pointing out to everyone and what she tells herself.

My mother has told me that certain things have happened to her in her life. However, I have been told by at least one relative that what my mother claims to have had happen to herself did in fact, not happen to HER, they happened to other people in her family. My mom seems to think that by throwing drama and stories about OTHER people, or essentially lies about herself, is will probably make her easier to like, or makes other people feel more sorry for her, or gives her the attention she craves. It's like the time she tried to claim she had cancer and 'you never know how much time you have left' when you have cancer. I still don't know why a person with 'serious' cancer would still go to Florida for a couple of weeks with a topical cream to remove said .1 cm flesh from her chest. I also don't know why she would tell my husband and I that she told a renter of hers that she had cancer (this was before she actually found out she had a small spot on her chest) so he would treat her better. I was shocked. And I bit my tongue because I sure wanted to smack her upside the head for saying such a thing just to get someone to stop yelling at her (for something she likely had done to provoke him into yelling)! What an insult to people who actually have or had cancer!

I was always unsure about what happened to my middle brother in grade 5 (C who lives with them right now in). I now know for certain at some point my mother put him on some kind of anti depressants. My middle brother may have had things wrong with him but my mom made sure he can never be on his own or ever get better or at least, if he had some type of learning disability, LOTS of people have disabilities of different kinds and learn how to live with them.

For instance, my mom touched my middle brother on his behind at church, saying she was trying to get a hymn book.  My mom told me her version of this, that he stormed out of the church and was very very angry and upset, to the point that my mother claimed she was fearful of him.  My brother told me about it, too, and gave me his version.  He felt humiliated and violated because not only did mom place her hand on his bum, she did it at the front of the church where they were sitting.   Even if he is somewhat hyper-sensitive to a lot of things (who wouldn't be?  I certainly was when I was living with her), I agree that my mother should not have touched his behind.  She could simply have asked him to move, or touched him on his shoulder or motioned with her hand for him to move away from the pew so she could reach the book.

They were right in the front-most row, as usual, because my mother likes to be in the front row of everything.  My mother told me she thought he over-reacted to the point of being dangerous.  She has told me more than once, including in this situation, about institutionalizing him. I think sometimes she tries to provoke him so she can arrest him. On the other hand, she always enjoyed provoking us. She would follow us around unceasingly when we tried to go to our rooms or get some space somehow when we were growing up. She would deliberately not give us the breathing space we would need to cool down, in fact she seemed to try to fuel the fire by pouring gasoline on it. It was a game to her to see how far she could get before we would cry, explode in her face in rage, punch a hole in a wall, or scream obscenities, or run away from the house, and then she would walk around like a wounded duck squawking to dad or anyone else who would listen about how mean and terrible her children are toward her.

My mom thinks she is a leading authority on drugs and who should take them.  She was a nurse before she retired, and would take expired drugs home from work.  Tylenol (admittedly, no big deal), Ponstan, Tetracycline, muscle relaxants and those were the drugs I knew about, there may have been others.  She used the muscle relaxants herself, but she had no qualms about giving us the other drugs.  She said Ponstan was to help keep my mind clear.  There never seemed to be a bottle with instructions, she would just tell us what dosage to take. She once gave me a gel pill I had never seen before and I took it to the pharmacy and asked about it. The pharmacist said that if it was expired it could actually be poisonous. I can't remember what it was, just that it was a black and white gel pill.

When our first dog was getting older and becoming very sick, she started feeding the dog muscle relaxants and pain killers.  She would not put the dog down humanely, because apparently my middle brother (who was not in town at the time) would have something to say about it.  So she just prolonged our dog's suffering.  Our dog had multiple seizures.  It made me cry so hard to witness it.  Our dog could not move, so I hope she was not afraid or fearful or in pain and unable to move.

Their second dog (that they got after the kids had all moved out) was a Shitzu-cross.  He was getting older, and having stomach problems.  It probably didn't help that my mother would feed him balogna and cereal with milk all the time.   She felt it would prevent the dog from eating its own crap.  Anyway, it's quite coincidental that the dog died a day or two before my parents moved to BC.  My theory is that the dog was going to be too much of a burden for them to take him with them.  My mom may or may not have drugged the dog herself.  Her story was that, inexplicably, the dog had some kind of seizure to the point where its neck was damaged.

If, in fact the dog had a seizure to the point where he had damaged his neck as my mother described (she almost made it sound like his neck had broken, as she described his head was hanging limply to one side), I suspect it was drugs she gave him or she may have physically attempted to break his neck herself.  Either that or the story of the seizure is a lie and mom just didn't want to tell us that she wanted to put the dog to sleep because they were moving. My parents knew we would probably not want to take him because we don't care for her dog very much.  We observed the dog a day or two before all this occurred and the dog actually looked like he was doing just fine...   I don't know how much my dad knows about this. The reason I don't believe it is because she kept repeating the story over and over and describing everything in detail.  If it was the truth why not just tell us once and then let it be?

Re-Edited: What I found out happened at Christmas 2010

I had to re-post this because the old post would not let me remove someone's name from the website address URL.  Please read from the bottom of this post (original email) and upwards to get the correct chronological sequence of emails:


From: Holly

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 10:22 AM
To: a relative
 

OMG... My mom is so sick. And dad must not be right in the head. What's to stop him from calling his own family and mom when my nosy mother isn't around breathing down his neck getting him to do housework and run around for her while she's visiting her lady friends (I'm sure they will come to the realization just how much of a trainwreck my mom really is, or perhaps some of them are already clued into it already). 

Well, it must have been a bit of a sting of recognition when I hung up on MY mom (Sandi) this weekend. Although judging by the lame (and endless) message she left on our answering machine I get the feeling she is completely oblivious that she ever did anything in that respect. Basically here is the email I sent my mom through my dad (as mom claims she never emails). I would copy the email "they" sent to me in the first place, but I could tell it wasn't from my dad, it was from my mom. Who else would go nosing about asking about stuff they think they know about? Not dad. Mom got info from some contractor/builder type and seemed to completely forget we don't have a crawlspace or a basement. Whatevs... lol

-----------------------------------
(here is the response I sent my dad regarding a message "he" sent us on Facebook... )

"Hi Dad,

Hm, well there IS no crawl space. We're on a cement pad... lol

We have a guy who is coming to check things out for windows, and we are going to check the attic again ourselves to make sure it has adequate insulation. We got it cased, but thanks for the info.

Also if you could remind mom of something for us. We do not want to have anything to do with real estate. If she wants to check her ad for Osler St. she can do so online or call the Leader-Post. If she wants to talk to me like I'm an idiot, I'll at least expect to get paid for it, like a property manager, if I was willing to be one, which I am not. I was not in the least concerned that she doesn't have property on Albert St. What made me hang up the phone was the tone which she used with me. I had intended to call this weekend but the way we were treated the last little while has really raised my ire.

Just wanted to make sure, are the Snowblower and the Lawnmower considered ours, or is there some kind of hidden contract stating that we have to drop everything we're doing on a whim to drop one of these machines off at one of yours and mom's houses at any time? And if they are not ours, we will gladly return them as soon as we get our own Snowblower and Lawnmower. And is there a similar expectation with the Dehumidifier, in which case we will be happy to refund the money.

Please don't call us, we'll call you.

-Holls-"

-----------------------------------------------

So the response on our answering machine (according to David who gave me the gist because I certainly didn't feel like listening to it) was that she would NEVER ever ask us to lend out the landmower or the snowblower as they were GIFTS (well that's what we thought but her actions proved otherwise last time she visited) and of COURSE we didn't have to send her the money for the dehumidifier. Apparently she also attempted to launch into all the times her and dad were good to us, ie when we came up from the US and stayed with them, and when they let us pay lower rent for the smallest crampiest and mouldiest places she rented out to people and did renovations in WHILE we were living in them... But she ran out of room on the tape. Naturally she made it sound like she was horrified that I would think such a thing, and said this is the 'last call you'll get from me but I will let you call me from now on' etc, etc. I feel a responding email about all the times she was 'good' to me, that I will finally get off my chest a few things and as far as I know these emails come across my dad first, so he's going to read it first.

Anyway, if necessary we'll get a feature that allows us to block her calls. It's included anyway as we pay for I think it's 8 features for $12 or something like that. 

For now, I'm letting her stew. And I know my dad is a swell fellow, but I can't help be resentful that he always takes my mom's side and doesn't just up and get the hell out of there. BAIL! BAIL! He ran away from home twice when he lost his job, why doesn't he bloody well do it now?

Very nice to hear from you... I tell you, her actions aren't helping her any, she's actually strengthening my resolve to do the Split. The big apron string cut.

-Holls-

--------------------------------------

EMAIL RESPONSE (Generalized to protect sender's identity):

My relative can certainly understand the frustration with my Mom:

The latest thing is that Mom (and Dad) called Grandma before Christmas and Mom started rehashing the whole reunion thing. My mom had advised relatives she would NEVER discuss this with Grandma. But she did. She went on and on and on and on…and Grandma gets so stressed whenever she calls any more – anyway! Even when she’s not rehashing the reunion thing… just because how Mom controls the conversation and never lets Grandma talk to her own son!! And this is the first time Mom actually brought up the STUPID reunion thing with Grandma. Grandma got so stressed she said some things she regrets! She told Mom…”you forget that I was right there when it all happened.” And my Mom was trying to use all these excuses as to why she behaved that way….and when Grandma said that to her, my Mom said, "Well we’ll never call you again!" and hung up on Grandma. Grandma feels bad about it – only because of her son, my Dad!! Grandma was upset that whole day stewing about it. I was pretty angry when I got home. 

Nice Christmas hello eh!!

So now it looks like they will never stay at my Grandma's house again because people are starting to stand up to her and this is her way of getting back at everyone.  And now they won’t call.  Everyone feels really bad for my Dad.  It’s not fair that he can’t have a relationship with his own Mother – when she’s 91 and who knows how long she’ll still be around!! 

 -------------------------

From: Holly

Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 9:20 AM

I mentioned to my relative (who had cautioned me about posting something on Facebook) that my Dad can't see my wall, 

he can't see my posts, and he can't see other people's posts to me.

And for specific photo albums that contain certain other relatives, for instance, I have also blocked my Dad out of respect for those who want some privacy.

-Holls-

Feb 27 2011: HARMONIOUS INCONGRUITY (80 X 100 cm)

There was editing to remove information regarding information that might reveal someone's identity...  

SENSEI SPEAKS:

There are certainly overlapping traits for NPD and psychopathy, and I have been thinking lately that spousal abusers are typically either one or the other, and perhaps a bit of both.  There’s a bit of research to back this up, I think.  Personality disorders generally are messy, and thus difficult to diagnose, but let’s put it this way:  anyone who beats up his wife/girlfriend, blames her for making him mad, then feels sorry for himself that she doesn’t understand him—such a person is narcissistic not a psychopath. 

A psychopath, to me, has very little of these emotional responses to their own or others’ pain because they are incapable of empathy or deep feeling.  I think they are quite capable of obsessive tendencies and other stuff, not to allay anxiety but to make the environment suit their needs.  With NPD, they feel sorry for themselves because they can’t get their needs met, other people don’t do what they want them to do so they can’t fill the narcissistic void (i.e., the hole in the doughnut).  I don’t think there is any such longing or need in a psychopath; they don’t feel much at all, and may do things to try to feel something in the way that thrill junkies jump out of airplanes for a “rush” and feel bored when they are just doing normal things.  Or they become predators (polite or not).   With NPD, they are overly sentimental about their own emotions and give their feelings a primacy that is never reciprocated by the world or not adequately, and so it looks like they don’t have any empathy for others when the problem is more that others are the means to an emotional end.  Whereas I don’t think the psychopath has any sentiment at all, for themselves or others.  The narcissist has lots of feelings but their feelings are all directed toward themselves.  The psychopath doesn’t feel much, or at least feelings are not a hugely motivating force like they are for the narcissist.  But, I see your friend Sue’s point about aggressive narcissists=psychopaths, I just don’t think all psychopaths are aggressive, I think they just look aggressive because we interpret their lack of empathy as aggression when it’s really a lack of feeling capacity.  There are, I believe, aggressive psychopaths, but I think they are either trained into that or they just get interested in that kind of power because they get a buzz off it.  Was Jeffrey Dahmer aggressive?  From what I have read, no, not in the sense we think of, he just killed people because of his peculiar obsessive sexual perversion, but he apparently didn’t get all that angry in the process.  We think of aggression as anger, that the fight or flight response kicks in and anger is instrumental, it has a purpose to protect us.  For Dahmer, people were just like bugs or lab rats to him, and without any social conscience to say “Hmm, shouldn’t keep going down this road”, he just got weirder and weirder.   But he wasn’t trying to protect himself from anybody because he became a predator for a purpose that only made sense to him.  I think he just graduated to people from animals, and he didn’t think there was much difference. 

Psychopaths don’t see others as subjects just “things”. 

Anyway, thanks for the blog.  Just glad I don’t live with either one.

-----------------------------------------------

To make a long story longer...

Taking into consideration there are no pure “types”, yes, I believe psychopaths are not capable of much emotion, they can only approximate it by imitating others.  We focus on their lack of empathy because it is the one thing that we think leads to crimes against other people.  I would argue that they are emotionally undeveloped across the board, and that the rage we associate with psychopaths in movies (see Hannibal Lecter) is our way of “explaining” that only a psychopath could do such horrible crimes.  Well, shucks, most of the Nazis were bureaucrats, common thugs and antisocial punks, and they did horrible crimes because they didn’t see the people they killed as people like themselves.  I am sure they loved their mothers, but anyone who wasn’t part of their social group was nothing.  The Hell’s Angels are the same; they have a sentimental code of brotherhood and loyalty which simulates family and brotherly love and they have real emotional attachments to each other for the most part, but outsiders are simply prey.  The difference is that the psychopath doesn’t see ANY people as different from animals or insects or rocks and cannot really form attachments to anyone of any depth.  They just see people as objects. 

I don’t know that psychopaths are all that methodical, because I think that they likely make social mistakes based on their inability to read or relate to others’ emotions; they can’t even fake it very good.  Faked emotions may be manipulative in their intention, so it’s possible your mother’s faked emotions look so fake because she is pursuing a rational agenda at the time, not displaying an emotional reaction.  She likely could read your emotions if she could pay attention to someone’s besides her own.  There is some indication in the psych literature that people can “grow” out of borderline tendencies around their forties, as they keep getting feedback from others that they are not going to have friends or family if they don’t smarten up.  I think the personality disorders are so intermixed that is why they are trying to rework them, and I think you can get symptom overlap between several.  But to me a psychopath is much more than a personality disorder, it is an emotional deficit that occurs very early in development and may have little or nothing to do with learned behaviour.  I think a lot, if not all, are born that way.  If they are brought up weird, they get weirder; if they are brought up well, they might be successful lawyers.  Ever see that TV series about the “good” psychopath whose father trains him to do “good” killing?  “Dexter”?  Haven’t seen it but it sounds interesting.

Your mother manipulates others and thinks they don’t notice, partly because nobody can quite believe she’s doing it and nobody calls her on it, and partly because I think she convinces herself that her scheming is really for your own good if you’d only see things her way.  But it’s not; you can’t manipulate somebody into their own good (try telling that to some of my colleagues, mind you).  In short, I don’t think your mom is a psychopath, but from what you have described she is manipulative, self-serving, and self-absorbed.  She seeks to have her kids fulfill her emotional needs (and/or financial ones, for that matter), and she has a command of emotions but tries to use them to her purpose.  We call that “instrumental”, since the emotion serves another purpose than its own expression.  She does not seem like a psychopath, but I could be wrong.

Feb 27 2011: HARMONIOUS INCONGRUITY (80 X 100 cm)

The above painting is sort of my own Rod of Asclepius.  It is a symbol of myself, as the tree-like figure, and my mother, the snake.  I also remember the Old Testament, where Moses presented to his people the bronze snake on a pole. The people were speaking against God and he set serpents among them.  Then the people repented and, instead of taking away the serpents in answer to their prayer, God provided a remedy in the form of a serpent. 

In making this my own symbol, there is a penalty of sin/pain/death for sinning (or in this case, going against my mother who THINKS she is God and that if anyone goes against her they are sinning).  The remedy I provide for myself (who had a 'death' of sorts, for choosing to go my own way and to assert my own will) is the snake (mother) becomes  part of me.  I become stronger/immune to her venom.  I have my own roots taking energy and nourishment from my surroundings (those I love and those who love me, hence the bright yellow light surrounding the central subjects in the painting).  I am separate from my mother, she does not have her roots or suckers or tentacles in me sucking my essence and nourishment out me (she feeds off people).  I cannot be moved.  I am drawing nourishment and love from somewhere other than my mother.  I am completely separate from her.   She tried to take over, but only a part of her became a part of me.  I am transformed into something other than my old self.  I used to be still, passive, bending to her will, but no more.  I can recognize and can no longer be harmed by attacking serpents (like my mother).  I have been bitten so many times, that the poison no longer affects me.   Or at least, I'm getting to that point.

Cheesy, isn't it?  8P

From Sue Wiggins

I too believe that people with NPD and psychopaths share a common factor - this is based on personal experience and some research evidence.  Below is a summary of something I posted a few weeks ago.

Hope it helps.

Below I have cited the characteristics for NPD from the DSM-IV and also cited the characteristics of psychopathy (the two factors of psychopathy from The Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry). The characteristics of NPD and Factor 1 of the psychopathy characteristics seem, at least very similar.  

  -  SUE

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (DSM-IV)
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy.
1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Selfishly takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends
7. Lacks empathy
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him
9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes

Psychopathy factors (The Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry).
Factor 1
Aggressive narcissism
1. Glibness/superficial charm
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle
1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems
10. Revocation of conditional release
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MY RESPONSE (using this criteria to analyse my mother from an anecdotal point of view): 
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (DSM-IV)
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy. 

exaggerated  sense of self-importance (1) -- I definitely think  that she does think she is the leading authority on everything, because if she doesn't know something she will go find out and then be happy to sit back and interrupt a perfectly normal and fun conversation with what she has learned, and you are expected to listen even if you are totally uninterested in the subject because she is telling this wonderful advice for your own good and if you don't listen to her it's very offensive.  If you don't listen to her and take what she says as gospel, for heaven's sake if you have your own opinion, well, that just means you hate her and she will sulk and argue.  Don't resist or it gets worse for everyone because she will make you pay somehow.

If anyone dares to have their own opinion, she will tell others that there is something wrong with that person mentally, or that they don't agree with her because of their religion, or because they were raised incorrectly, or because you are weak, unintelligent, strange, rude, unwell, etc. 

Preoccupation  with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal  love -- (2)  She definitely has some odd ideas about things, certainly.  She tried to get me to dump my fiance and tricked me into coming to see her at brunch one day so I could meet up with a fellow named Greg who was our family car fixer-upper.  He was slightly embarrassed, as well, I am sure, because he came in his rattiest sweats with holes in them, like he maybe had just gotten up or came for brunch while working on the car (his shirt was quite dirty as well)....  I reminded her that I was engaged, but thanks anyways.  She does have a tendency to act like she knows everything and must have something wrong in her head because she's thought she's had more authority to hand out drugs to patients at work than she should (she got into trouble for that)... 

Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should  associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) (3)  She would hang out with very popular people (in her eyes) until they got sick of her being so clingy and needy and telling them all her problems.

 Requires excessive admiration (4)  Not sure about this one, she seems to have a low opinion of her looks, but I suppose she has to be in control of every situation and conversation and relationship.  Must be exhausting!  lol

Has a sense of entitlement (5) DEFINITELY.  Revenue Canada (tax evasion at least 2X); Health/Rentalsman (why should she get something fixed properly when she can hire the neediest worker, wheedle and talk him down to the lowest pay and therefore the shoddiest work; cut corners, avoid getting people with certification, etc); Labor Board (why should I pay my employees at my care home the proper amount?  She was sued 2X and had to pay back-wages 2X so she ended up selling the care home);  she always comes first -- for shame that my brother married and moved to another city.  My mother hates her daughter-in-law.  She also seems to hate my husband, but at least I told her off a few times about things she said about him in front of me or to my brother.  Who knows what she says when we aren't around, but to our faces she tries to be very nice.

Selfishly  takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends (6) ABSOLUTELY!! See #5; she had my brother and I (excluded one sibling because she believes him mentally incapable) all sign with her on properties that we would 'share.'  We were never given 'full disclosure' or in other words didn't know exactly what those land titles meant we were responsible for.  So my dad, me and my mom were on a property together, and my brother and my mom and dad on another.  My mother got in trouble with Revenue Canada about at least one property, and wheedled my brother into 'owning up' to Revenue Canada about 'his part' in the matter, and he didn't even HAVE anything to do with it.  He didn't realize that by doing so, it would leave a nasty black mark on his records for God knows how long.  This is just one of the reasons he hasn't spoken to my parents in 6 years. 

More recently, my mom decided to move to BC because she had run out of friends here, so she sold her property.  Before she left (I had tried several years to get my name off that land title with her and my dad) I again attempted to find out what would happen.  She got all fast-talking and alarmed and pleaded with me not to take my name off the title or somehow, in her mind, all three of us were going to lose thousands of dollars....  Somehow in her mind she thought that because I lived there and paid 'rent' on my own property (untraceable cash payments) to my mom that somehow if I got out now, it would wreck the past.  I didn't see how something I did in the past could affect my present, so I made an excuse to see a Real Estate lawyer (and of course I was accused of going behind her back, not protecting myself) and figured out a LOT; and then because I knew everything she HAD no choice but to be very civil about the matter and cooperate and take my name off the title with her cooperation.  At one point I asked if she could speed up the process and help pay part of the fees, and she said she would, but then she said, just as she was handing me the cheque, "Since I am paying for this, can you now please tell me why you are taking your name off the title?"  At which point I gave her back the cheque and said if that was how it was going to be I would pay for the fees myself.  So she back-tracked and paid for it anyway out of shame or something.
 

Lacks empathy (7) Oh definitely.  She's so fake.  She does NOT understand people.  Might as well be an alien visiting the planet.  Doesn't quite fit in... Almost gets away with her disguise, but always something slips.
 

Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him (8) Definitely jealous of people who try to talk to my dad.  She controls the conversation always.  My mom won't let my dad call his own mother, and once told her (my 93 year old Gramma) that they wouldn't be calling anymore, simply because my Gramma stood up to her on the phone.  She is always saying how wasteful other people are in our family because they bought a large house, or they have nicer things than us, or if they are striking out in their own business she calls them a 'bum.'  But we aren't supposed to tell them what she thinks.
 

Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes (9)  Definitely.  Always.  And gets pissed off when other people are pissed off that she does that.  And she doesn't even seem to see that SHE is the cause for people's reactions.  It's always someone else's fault.  They misunderstood her (again), they always team up against her, they're on their period, they aren't very rational, etc.  She's excellent at recognizing her own traits in other people, but doesn't see those same traits in herself.

Psychopathy factors (The Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry).
Factor 1
Aggressive narcissism
Glibness/superficial  charm (1) Yes

Grandiose sense of self-worth(2) Yes

Pathological lying (3) Either she isn't aware that she is being deceptive, or actually DOES have a bad memory as she claims or she is a very very very good actress.  And I am starting to think she is the actress who pretends that she has a bad memory.  Or she says WE have the bad memory. 

Cunning/manipulative (4) Same thing here.  I suspect she is more cunning than she lets on.  She has always given me the impression of having a cold, hard logical mind.  She is brilliant with numbers, so how could she have such a bad understanding of real estate when she at other times seems to be so expert on how things work??

Lack of remorse or guilt (5)  Nothing is ever her fault.  It's everyone else.  Which right there would indicate she isn't right in the head.  If it's NEVER you and it's ALWAYS the world, something is wrong with YOU!  lol

Emotionally  shallow (6)  She never could understand my cartoons and jokes.  My dad always had to explain things to her.  She always seemed to have a fake laugh and fake tears.

Callous/lack of empathy (7)  Well, if everything revolves around you, how could anyone else be important?   She keeps saying she is sorry for things she does but goes ahead and repeats the same behaviours over and over and over in different ways.

Failure to accept responsibility for  own actions (8)  Exactly.

Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle
Need for  stimulation/proneness to boredom (1)  Has to travel all the time, has to create drama, has to be doing something something something all the time.  Can't sit still, can't focus on one thing at a time.  Especially irritating when I am trying to talk to me and she starts ordering my dad around to get her something, fiddles with the TV remote, just flits off on whims of conversation.  I will be talking and she takes part of what I said and goes off in a completely different direction from what I was talking about.

Parasitic lifestyle (2)  If you mean she has to have others to feed off of in order to live, then this could be the case.  She orders my dad around and he is her puppet.  I don't think he's used his own brain in years.  When us kids used to live with her, she was trying to get us to live like that too.  She seems to survive only if she can suck the emotional and mental energy out of you on a constant basis.

Poor behavioral  control (3) Hm, throwing a drawer of cutlery, following us kids around when we were trying to get some space in our rooms away from her, getting 3 cm from my face and gritting her teeth and spittle hitting my face, screaming and yelling, panic, causing ME to point out that SOMEONE has to be the adult here...  lol  I would say yes.

Promiscuous sexual behavior (4)  Don't think she is promiscuous, perhaps she used to be, but to hear it from her she was a demure and compliant Catholic.  Also claims she was sexually abused, but I have my doubts about that, because she also said she had cancer and she did not.  Oddly, she tried to encourage ME to do promiscuous things -- I had a crush on a much older man in my teens and she suggested I write to him and tell him so.  She also took us kids to the jail where she worked as a nurse on a Sunday lay service because apparently we need to be taught about love and compassion this way.  She let me sit on a pedophile's lap and then told me later on during the trip home what a pedophile was and what they do and why he made me so uncomfortable and why he was always profusedly sweating when I held his hand during Prayer Circle.  I was molested by a much older cousin who was her sister's son and she always was much more sympathetic to him, and how rough he had it, and also thought I might have had something to do with attracting him to myself when I was 6 years old and he was in his late teens. 

Lack of realistic, long-term  goals (5)  Actually she always seems to have very planned-out and methodical ways of thinking.  Well, unless you mean she has all those schemes and doesn't think that anyone will figure her out or see what she's doing and that she will get away with it.   She's had several run-ins with authorities that went wrong for her where she was sued or in trouble (I've mentioned Revenue Canada for instance).

Impulsiveness (6) Sometimes.  Especially for instance if she thinks she can just take it upon herself to invite herself over or tell others they can come to our house...  Case in point, we were just going to a movie and they just came out of the movie...  My brother was with them and she said "Oh why don't you take him to this movie again?  He really liked it!"  I mentioned thanks but we were on a date.  So my brother was all embarrassed and my mother had to take him back to his house.  lol  Classic.

Irresponsibility (7) Well, it depends on who you talk to.  My brothers got all the attention and I think because I was most like her, or competition for dad's affection, I usually got made the example, had to look after my brothers, had the strictest rules and punishment while the other two boys could do what they wanted either because they could do no wrong (youngest) or because they didn't know any better/were mentally incompetent (middle brother - I think she made him her special project)...  I was somewhat neglected, and definitely more criticized, emotionally and also (rarely) physically abused.

Juvenile  delinquency (8)  More than likely.  I don't have a lot of anecdotal information about this.  Just some bits and pieces from when us kids were growing up. However she certainly acts juvenile NOW, and she sure treated US all like we were juvenile deliquents.

Early behavioral problems (9)  She probably did have issues, because she always said she never felt she did good enough in her parent's eyes.

She was never institutionalized (10), but she has more than once gotten into trouble with other authorities.

IT CAN'T BE ME, SO IT MUST BE YOU...

Ah, yes... lol  Whenever I would look at my mother like she was crazy or disagree with something she said, she would ask me, "Is it THAT time of month again?"  Or she would say, "Why do you take on everyone else's feelings and worry about them all the time?" (lol because I wasn't allowed to have my own feelings and was supposed to worry about what she wanted all the time).  "Oh, you're so sensitive about everything!"  My reactions were never a response to her unreasonable demeanor, sick mind games, or thinly veiled criticism or embarrassing remarks in public.   

Like once she asked me in front of a boy I had over at our house, "ARE YOU WEARING A BRA?" (I was so embarrassed, I hissed at her YES, because I WAS wearing a bra)...  

Once I asked if I could have an advance of a few dollars on my allowance because I had a girlfriend from out of town staying over and we wanted to rent a movie.  My mom at first told me, no.  But then soon after, she came into my bedroom and threw a pile of change in our direction, some of which hit me quite hard.  And I was so shocked that after she left I started crying.  My friend at the time tried to cheer me up and told me it was okay, but she never came to visit me again.  8(

The Sun Comes Out

I sent the following message to my parents:

Dear Mom and Dad,

You have requested to get in contact with me by phone.  However, I don’t feel this is something I can do anymore.  I am willing to communicate with email for now. 

The simple answer to your question ‘why’ is when I am talking to the two of you:

-       Dad rarely, if ever, has anything to say.

-       Mom is normally in control of the conversation.

-       When I get through a phone call, I don’t feel good about myself.  So in an effort to protect myself I am restricting myself to email.

This has been a long time coming.  It was always coming to this.  I’ve had a lot of turmoil in my soul for a long time.  Now I do not.

Sincerely,

Holly

Surprisingly they just responded with this reply below...  Notice how you can't tell WHO is actually writing this article.  It used to be that Dad only communicated with me by email.  Now it looks like my mother saturates everything...

PARENTS:

Hi, just wanted to ask how your health is these days. Is the stress level/migraine situation any better? Has your bronchial condition improved? Has Bruiser been voted the best-lookin' dog on earth yet? Oh yes, and we're still wondering when David's birthday is so we can send him a card. We accidentally missed getting a card to you for your birthday, Holly - don't want that to happen again! (we were in the middle of moving for the 2nd time in a 6-month period) Sorry! Love, Mm & Dd (we're learning textese!) 

ME: 

I feel much better lately. It actually took me about three weeks to get my voice back to normal.

Bruiser didn't get nearly enough votes, but oh well! lol We don't care, because WE think he's the best! 8D I suppose if I really really tried and campaigned as though I was trying to become Prime Minister it might have happened. But he's a dog and doesn't care for the publicity!

PARENTS:

Dear Holly, we are glad to hear your chest problem & vice are getting better again. As you know, we keep quite busy with our rentals. That isn't a topic to discuss but does as usual take up a fair amount of time. Also, we have been extremely slowly unpacking because we were tired of it 2 times in row. So, we cut ourselves some slack and told ourselves to do it only as we could feel up to it. Finally, now, all the boxes in the living room are unpacked. We are just starting to put the pictures up. There a half-dozen boxes in the bedroom to unpack. Pictures need put up everywhere. A few boxes are left in the garage. Upon returning from Florida, an intense 2 weeks got us caught up on our income tax. We go for a walk most days. Dad works out once a week or so at the local pool and fitness centre for less than $3 per session. Mom swims once a week for the same cost. We miss Snifter for our walks, but he trained us well. Mom goes out for dinner at different restaurants once a month with the ex-sewing ladies group. Besides that we try to go out with Chris to a movie or some such event once a month. He mainly is a loner so we like to keep in contact. He comes here Sundays for supper and usually one other short visit during the week. The weather has been about 5 degrees lower than it should be since the start of February and the sun is coming out less than predicted. This week they predict some some sun every day, but we Island citizens, while skeptical, appreciate that soon that will be the case. Most of the rain has been gone for a couple of weeks. Mom & Dad both go to Margie's to play games and have lovely meals there. She loves making meals for friends and family. We've had to our previous house for meals. When we are a little more caught up with unpacking, we'll have her here. We have been buying a pizza and taking dessert over there until then. The 3rd friend with cancer, Elaine, looks like her operation proved successful. She is one of 3 friends to survive, but unfortunately her husband had a stroke and at present she has to put pads on him, take him allover for therapies by car. She has to do all the regular living work, plus help him in and out of the car. He doesn't always lean correctly in his walker, so falls at present are a risk. We all hope and pray that he'll gradually get stronger. After the stroke, he had to go on antidepressants which changed his whole outlook to a positive one and so he is doing better with his therapies. He loves to sing Christian songs for inspiration. Dad has very little yard work to do on this low maintenance but beautiful yard with mostly perennials. He'll have only a small section to mow (we are getting our own lawn mower). We'll be looking for a few perennials for the hill in our back yard and gradually will paint the deck or Chris will. We had to get a guy to empty the eaves troughs of leaves and debris so the winter runoff would be away from the foundation which of course we did in Regina for snow and rain but here is just for rain pretty much. We have nice neighbours in the bay, who say hello and chat but mostly keep to themselves which we like. There is only one couple we might bet involved more with a time goes on. We'll see. Occasionally we meet with other friends who we knew in Regina years ago. Love, Mom & Dad

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And also I wrote to this link: http://hubpages.com/hub/Do-You-Have-a-Narcissistic-Mother

I totally agree with everyone above.  After some lengthy psychology counseling and support from my husband and other family members (most if not all) I am finally at a stage in my life where I accept that my mother is ill and there isn't much I can do about it.  She is her own worst enemy.  It's almost as though she is an alien from another planet, to the point where I think she may not only be Narcissistic but also has some tendencies toward Psychopathy.  My dad is her enabler.  I am not 100% sure what to do, but the fact that they live two provinces away from me helps, and I have blocked their phone number so they can no longer call me.  It doesn't matter anyway, because even though both my parents are on the line, it is my mother controlling the conversation and my dad doesn't seem to have a thing to say to me.  He always let her get away with any type of behaviour and never stuck up for me, or took my side, or his own side, or any side except hers.  For a long time I knew my mother was sick, and felt 'oh she doesn't know any better' and because of this was easy to manipulate out of guilt.  Trying to reason with her is like talking to a person with an addictive personality (you CAN'T reason with a drunk person or any person whose perceptions are filtered in such a way as to create fact out of fiction) or talking to a wall.  She may appear apologetic or remorseful, but how can a person who doesn't understand what they are doing wrong be truly sorry for something they did?  What she really feels is resentment and frustration and anger when she creates those very same feelings in other people.  At some level though, I think she DOES know what she is doing.  Sometimes she behaves as though she is clueless, but at the same time there are levels of conscious effort to deceive or hide truth or undermine.  I am not sure what to think anymore, but I can't let guilt rule me anymore.  I'm tired of feeling badly about myself after talking with her, or trying to defend my ideas and actions and way of life.  Basically any time we talk it is like a collision of forces.  She is the immovable force, always, because she never relents, never bends, never tries to compromise.  It is usually me who ends up doing the compromising.  I'm constantly biting my tongue because if I protest something she says, it's an instant argument.  Constant struggle.  Always a battle that you're never going to win. No peace.  Well she no longer has any power over me.  She never really did.  It just took me a long time to figure it out for myself.